AironicallyHuman said: This thread has both variants of anime fans I loathe: a fan born over 10 years after me, preaching about modern anime fans not understanding, and another poster coming across as a Devilman elitist that mistakes visceral thrills taken to brutal extremes as being automatically superior to Death Note because it went for the opposite, words>violence approach in trying to sway the thinking of humanity and control it, rather than end it. Crybaby was moving, absorbing and surprising. It explores the darker, more sexual side of humanity that just isn't done anymore due to the graphic violence/sex. And it resonates with viewers because humans happen to be very intelligent animals; drawn to their primal instincts, at the end of the day. More so old school anime fans 'cause the 80's was full of 'ultra violence' that faded out. But was Akira special in any way? He cried for others, yes. Otherwise, he was a hot-headed nice guy more horny than average. Ryo until the end twist was his cold sociopath counterpoint. Only Miki had any real depth, alongside Miki2, with their struggles over fighting to see the best in people despite their situations. The plot, Satan aside, was just demons killing and humans being humans; destroying themselves as many civilisations have. Nothing thematically original (in manga form originally, sure--not now): just superbly done with the visuals/music and how it was tied together at the end. Really? Miki was pretty much the only one without any sort of depth tho her, no matter how much I love the show, she was a plot device and nothing else. "The plot, Satan aside was just demons killing and humans being humans; destroying themselves as many civilisations have. Nothing thematically original (in manga form originally, sure--not now)" May I remind you this is an adaptation of said manga? Of course it's going to incorporate the same themes, when they're just as relevant nowadays. Akira went through a lot of emotional turmoil having to accept his parents' death and dealing with his anger and hunger for violence (before his fight with Sileen). He's not just some nice boi, he did have some depth, much more so than Miki did. Also, oh look, a type of anime fan I loathe - Self-entitlement to retro because you grew up with it so younger people shouldn't. :I Age doesn't matter, I will preach about Retro anime as much as I want if I like them. |
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AironicallyHuman said: This thread has both variants of anime fans I loathe: a fan born over 10 years after me, preaching about modern anime fans not understanding, and another poster coming across as a Devilman elitist that mistakes visceral thrills taken to brutal extremes as being automatically superior to Death Note. Dude... just about the only thing that it takes, to be superior to Death Note, is to not be Death Note. Devilman IS better than Death Note but that's because of Death Note's failings to have any redeeming qualities whatsoever, for it being childish crap. You won't like me saying that, but hey you loath me apparently so :P Death Note is just a good example I like to name to demonstrate that people like really terribly done stuff. I had my intelligence insulted by it, Devilman doesn't do that. |
SigmaticDoc said: Really? Miki was pretty much the only one without any sort of depth tho her, she was a plot device and nothing else. May I remind you this is an adaptation of said manga? Of course it's going to incorporate the same themes, when they're just as relevant nowadays. Akira went through a lot of emotional turmoil having to accept his parents' death The way Crybaby was presented, with the whole running/baton pass symbolism, Miki was the heart of the story and Akira the angry driving force, which is why episode 9 hit most the hardest. When every other human was killing blindly, she was used as a vocal point trying to redeem humanity, as illustrated with the whole blogging bit obviously added to the anime along with her befriending rapper's / the Miko subplot / everything. The blogging was rather cheesy but it both showed how others were reacting to the situation and gave her more significance. Her family were important to the tone of the show, where as Akira's actual mom and dad appeared for one ep, were killed off... and that was that. I only recall them dying even being touched upon when Miki mentioned how his parents had gone back straight away. Akira agonised more over ejaculating on his ceiling. Meanwhile, Miki's dad finding his son eating her mother conveyed lasting despair that continued into ep9 with Miki's end. And, yes: I am aware an adaptation is going to share the same themes. The stupidity of humans is timeless. My point was, what was fresh 50years ago in terms of manga is not going to remain so now, as an anime... which is why it was edited / modernised in parts. King of the obvious, I know. hybridial said: Death Note is just a good example I like to name to demonstrate that people like really terribly done stuff. I had my intelligence insulted by it, Devilman doesn't do that. I don't care that you don't care for Death Note, and it's kinda hard to loathe someone over an opinion on the internet, no matter how foolish they are. That was not 100% serious. Closer to 60%. What I do care about is that you can see the good in Devilman's violent, sexual approach yet not Death Note when it made dialogue without any of that compelling. It makes you look simple-minded when you praise something you like whilst needing to shit on something more mainstream. Or, put another way, EDGY. You were vague and gave no reasons about how it insulted your intelligence when Crybaby is not exactly remarkable for its writing; more thematically and stylistically. And it isn't THAT dissimilar from DN in terms of the world being corrupted by supernatural entities/powers/plotting. |
AironicallyHumanJan 15, 2018 5:15 PM
AironicallyHuman said: SigmaticDoc said: Really? Miki was pretty much the only one without any sort of depth tho her, she was a plot device and nothing else. May I remind you this is an adaptation of said manga? Of course it's going to incorporate the same themes, when they're just as relevant nowadays. Akira went through a lot of emotional turmoil having to accept his parents' death The way Crybaby was presented, with the whole running/baton pass symbolism, Miki was the heart of the story and Akira the angry driving force, which is why episode 9 hit most the hardest. When every other human was killing blindly, she was used as a vocal point trying to redeem humanity, as illustrated with the whole blogging bit obviously added to the anime along with her befriending rapper's / the Miko subplot / everything. The blogging was rather cheesy but it both showed how others were reacting to the situation and gave her more significance. Her family were important to the tone of the show, where as Akira's actual mom and dad appeared for one ep, were killed off... and that was that. I only recall them dying even being touched upon when Miki mentioned how his parents had gone back straight away. Akira agonised more over ejaculating on his ceiling. Meanwhile, Miki's dad finding his son eating her mother conveyed lasting despair that continued into ep9 with Miki's end. And, yes: I am aware an adaptation is going to share the same themes. The stupidity of humans is timeless. My point was, what was fresh 50years ago in terms of manga is not going to remain so now, as an anime... which is why it was edited / modernised in parts. King of the obvious, I know. hybridial said: Death Note is just a good example I like to name to demonstrate that people like really terribly done stuff. I had my intelligence insulted by it, Devilman doesn't do that. I don't care that you don't care for Death Note, and it's kinda hard to loathe someone over an opinion on the internet, no matter how foolish they are. That was not 100% serious. Closer to 60%. What I do care about is that you can see the good in Devilman's violent, sexual approach yet not Death Note when it made dialogue without any of that compelling. It makes you look simple-minded when you praise something you like whilst needing to shit on something more mainstream. Or, put another way, EDGY. You were vague and gave no reasons about how it insulted your intelligence when Crybaby is not exactly remarkable for its writing; more thematically and stylistically. And it isn't THAT dissimilar from DN in terms of the world being corrupted by supernatural entities/powers/plotting. Miki was significant, yes, that's a fact, but the fact that she was a plot device more than she was a character remains. About Death Note, it's one of the most pretentious anime I've seen. Pointless symbolism to the bible that's just there to look smart. While the dialogue was engaging, nothing ever progressed without one of the characters acting like a complete retard for a second, not to mention the rushed second half which was basically ass pull after ass pull. The show is based too much on one dimensional calculations - Light could choose the way someone dies by giving it a pre-text, like ''dies in a robbery, in a traffic accident, by suicide''. Given the ''intelligent'' pretense the show puts up, someone would figure that he would vary the deaths so he doesn't raise suspicion with everyone getting heart attacks left and right. here was one in the first half that's really hard to notice - When the 'second' Kira broadcasts a message on TV to get the attention of the original Kira, L suggests that Light impersonate the original Kira in a reply broadcast and Light obliges. Now consider : if Light was not actually Kira, then Light's broadcast would have immediately been noticed and recognized by the actual original Kira. The original Kira would have warned the second Kira (via another broadcast) not to listen to the reply of the fake Kira. He/she would also have warned the Police to never try to impersonate him/her ever again, as this would result in severe retribution. The very absence of this 'third' broadcast was the strongest indicator yet that Light was actually Kira, or at the very least, was one of the task force members; and L should most certainly have realised this. Death Note actually has an abundance of plot holes alongside it's mostly far-fetched wanna be smart dialogue and rushed second half. I can understand how someone's intelligence can be insulted by it. It's pretentious as hell. |
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SigmaticDoc said: About Death Note, it's one of the most pretentious anime I've seen. Pointless symbolism to the bible that's just there to look smart. Not trying to be a dick here with '...well, you like this... SO THERE!' logic - typically I don't have to try - but one of your favourite TV series is Eva. And one of your favourite movies, End of Eva. I mention this because it is the single most sodding well (in)famous case of the director/Anno (iirc) admitting that he put in biblical references up the wazoo because he thought that'd be kewl. No, really. I don't even remember much of anything in DN besides Ryuk liking apples so you'll have to enlighten me, also. Adam was definitely fucked off to Eva only. MODERN ANIME FANS, I tell you: see what you want to see. Light could choose the way someone dies by giving it a pre-text, like ''dies in a robbery, in a traffic accident, by suicide''. Given the ''intelligent'' pretense the show puts up, someone would figure that he would vary the deaths so he doesn't raise suspicion with everyone getting heart attacks left and right. Not sure if you're saying it should be obvious Light could kill however he wanted from the get-go (L figured this straight away, pretty much)? If you're instead saying Light should've varied his methodology so as to not get caught, then Light himself said why he didn't: he WANTED the world to know Kira existed. The entire show was built around his God complex and that arrogance leading to his downfall as the power he had corrupted him. And he did kill people in other ways--people that committed lesser crimes or were simply lazy good-for-nothings he slowly killed with cancer, illness, etc. Or used suicide for deaths he didn't want linked to Kira in small enough quantities not to be noticeable. Now consider : if Light was not actually Kira, then Light's broadcast would have immediately been noticed and recognized by the actual original Kira. The original Kira would have warned the second Kira (via another broadcast) not to listen to the reply of the fake Kira. He/she would also have warned the Police to never try to impersonate him/her ever again, as this would result in severe retribution. That's not a bad point, actually: Light could have sent his own video to counter the fake video L had him make. There are however many reasons he would not: the risk of giving away physical evidence. He had already been followed by the FBI, and L suspected him / had Mogi follow him, which lead to the discovery of Misa soon after. But it would not incriminate Light for not doing so when L knew that the real Kira would not sully himself by engaging in drama on television since he thought himself a God. That was the point: the second Kira was too much of a stupid fangirl to tell the difference. Death Note actually has an abundance of plot holes alongside it's mostly far-fetched wanna be smart dialogue and rushed second half. I can understand how someone's intelligence can be insulted by it. It's pretentious as hell. You mean, like Ryo being some kind of famous no parents teen scientist/whatever and being important enough to be taken seriously despite this to get on live TV and educate the Japanese public, even before he realised he was Satan? People overlook want they want to when they like things. To be young~ This is why it's good to be able to like one thing without needing to shit on another to justify it. I love being me. I also like ping pong. |
AironicallyHumanJan 16, 2018 1:24 AM
AironicallyHuman said: SigmaticDoc said: About Death Note, it's one of the most pretentious anime I've seen. Pointless symbolism to the bible that's just there to look smart. Not trying to be a dick here with '...well, you like this... SO THERE!' logic - typically I don't have to try - but one of your favourite TV series is Eva. And one of your favourite movies, End of Eva. I mention this because it is the single most sodding well (in)famous case of the director/Anno (iirc) admitting that he put in biblical references up the wazoo because he thought that'd be kewl. No, really. I don't even remember much of anything in DN besides Ryuk liking apples so you'll have to enlighten me, also. Adam was definitely fucked off to Eva only. MODERN ANIME FANS, I tell you: see what you want to see. Light could choose the way someone dies by giving it a pre-text, like ''dies in a robbery, in a traffic accident, by suicide''. Given the ''intelligent'' pretense the show puts up, someone would figure that he would vary the deaths so he doesn't raise suspicion with everyone getting heart attacks left and right. Not sure if you're saying it should be obvious Light could kill however he wanted from the get-go (L figured this straight away, pretty much)? If you're instead saying Light should've varied his methodology so as to not get caught, then Light himself said why he didn't: he WANTED the world to know Kira existed. The entire show was built around his God complex and that arrogance leading to his downfall as the power he had corrupted him. And he did kill people in other ways--people that committed lesser crimes or were simply lazy good-for-nothings he slowly killed with cancer, illness, etc. Or used suicide for deaths he didn't want linked to Kira in small enough quantities not to be noticeable. Now consider : if Light was not actually Kira, then Light's broadcast would have immediately been noticed and recognized by the actual original Kira. The original Kira would have warned the second Kira (via another broadcast) not to listen to the reply of the fake Kira. He/she would also have warned the Police to never try to impersonate him/her ever again, as this would result in severe retribution. That's not a bad point, actually: Light could have sent his own video to counter the fake video L had him make. There are however many reasons he would not: the risk of giving away physical evidence. He had already been followed by the FBI, and L suspected him / had Mogi follow him, which lead to the discovery of Misa soon after. But it would not incriminate Light for not doing so when L knew that the real Kira would not sully himself by engaging in drama on television since he thought himself a God. That was the point: the second Kira was too much of a stupid fangirl to tell the difference. Death Note actually has an abundance of plot holes alongside it's mostly far-fetched wanna be smart dialogue and rushed second half. I can understand how someone's intelligence can be insulted by it. It's pretentious as hell. You mean, like Ryo being some kind of famous no parents teen scientist/whatever and being important enough to be taken seriously despite this to get on live TV and educate the Japanese public, even before he realised he was Satan? People overlook want they want to when they like things. To be young~ This is why it's good to be able to like one thing without needing to shit on another to justify it. I love being me. I also like ping pong. 'You like this so....THERE''... Uh, no, the mentality behind my reply to you is separate from our Devilman conversation, you're discussing it in a thread I made so I figured I might as well join. And I don't like Eva because of it's references to the bible, obviously. It's pretty much the same case with Death Note when it comes to biblical references (not to that bad of an extent, because it incorporates a bit of it into the plot at least). I like it because of it's great psychological exploration and characterization. I thought it was fantastically done. First of all, getting on TV is easy, just gotta call your local news outlet and tell them a scoop. I've actually been on Bulgarian TV news on an issue that our town had. Also, the series state that when Ryo was at a very young age he earned a Ph.D and even taught classes, given the fact that he's had Jenny since the start of his life, it's also easy to assume he's never been born as someone who had to start from scratch and that he's been rich from the start. It's easy to think that he got publicity due to earning a Ph.D when he was a child, and his good looks making him popular to the viewers and thus resulting in him appearing more in media. There's a basis for that, unlike Death Note's plot holes and sometimes borderline retarded ass pulls. |
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SigmaticDoc said: I don't think he was saying anything about your mentality with his "you like this... so there" quote, he was just saying he doesn't usually does it but felt like it was something kind of appropiate here.AironicallyHuman said: Not trying to be a dick here with '...well, you like this... SO THERE!' logic - typically I don't have to try - but one of your favourite TV series is Eva. And one of your favourite movies, End of Eva. I mention this because it is the single most sodding well (in)famous case of the director/Anno (iirc) admitting that he put in biblical references up the wazoo because he thought that'd be kewl. No, really. I don't even remember much of anything in DN besides Ryuk liking apples so you'll have to enlighten me, also. Adam was definitely fucked off to Eva only. MODERN ANIME FANS, I tell you: see what you want to see. Not sure if you're saying it should be obvious Light could kill however he wanted from the get-go (L figured this straight away, pretty much)? If you're instead saying Light should've varied his methodology so as to not get caught, then Light himself said why he didn't: he WANTED the world to know Kira existed. The entire show was built around his God complex and that arrogance leading to his downfall as the power he had corrupted him. And he did kill people in other ways--people that committed lesser crimes or were simply lazy good-for-nothings he slowly killed with cancer, illness, etc. Or used suicide for deaths he didn't want linked to Kira in small enough quantities not to be noticeable. That's not a bad point, actually: Light could have sent his own video to counter the fake video L had him make. There are however many reasons he would not: the risk of giving away physical evidence. He had already been followed by the FBI, and L suspected him / had Mogi follow him, which lead to the discovery of Misa soon after. But it would not incriminate Light for not doing so when L knew that the real Kira would not sully himself by engaging in drama on television since he thought himself a God. That was the point: the second Kira was too much of a stupid fangirl to tell the difference. You mean, like Ryo being some kind of famous no parents teen scientist/whatever and being important enough to be taken seriously despite this to get on live TV and educate the Japanese public, even before he realised he was Satan? People overlook want they want to when they like things. To be young~ This is why it's good to be able to like one thing without needing to shit on another to justify it. I love being me. I also like ping pong. 'You like this so....THERE''... Uh, no, the mentality behind my reply to you is separate from our Devilman conversation, you're discussing it in a thread I made so I figured I might as well join. And I don't like Eva because of it's references to the bible, obviously. It's pretty much the same case with Death Note when it comes to biblical references (not to that bad of an extent, because it incorporates a bit of it into the plot at least). I like it because of it's great psychological exploration and characterization. I thought it was fantastically done. First of all, getting on TV is easy, just gotta call your local news outlet and tell them a scoop. I've actually been on Bulgarian TV news on an issue that our town had. Also, the series state that when Ryo was at a very young age he earned a Ph.D and even taught classes, given the fact that he's had Jenny since the start of his life, it's also easy to assume he's never been born as someone who had to start from scratch and that he's been rich from the start. It's easy to think that he got publicity due to earning a Ph.D when he was a child, and his good looks making him popular to the viewers and thus resulting in him appearing more in media. There's a basis for that, unlike Death Note's plot holes and sometimes borderline retarded ass pulls. |
| Ryo being advantaged isn't a plot hole, HE'S FUCKING SATAN. The manga didn't really focus on that stuff with him because it didn't matter, and it still didn't really matter in the anime. I've had the Death Note argument too many times. Besides the fact it tries to build a plot around a supposed prodigy who really believes just killing a bunch of people will somehow fix the world (there is basically no way this makes sense, not even a mental health reason, a sociopath nor psychopath would behave this way in the same situation, perhaps a really stupid person might but that's not how Light Yagami is presented now is he?) And then it takes this serious concept and uses it to stage a bunch of asspull "I'm so smart" series of forced plot twists. Why am I supposed to give a shit about that? That's not compelling, that's not even a story. And you have the fucking nerve to insinuate I'm the one somehow lacking intelligence here. How about this; there is an actual long, intelligent anime thriller. Just the one really. It's called Monster. Because Naoki Urasawa isn't a hack. |
avory said: SigmaticDoc said: I don't think he was saying anything about your mentality with his "you like this... so there" quote, he was just saying he doesn't usually does it but felt like it was something kind of appropiate here.'You like this so....THERE''... Uh, no, the mentality behind my reply to you is separate from our Devilman conversation, you're discussing it in a thread I made so I figured I might as well join. And I don't like Eva because of it's references to the bible, obviously. It's pretty much the same case with Death Note when it comes to biblical references (not to that bad of an extent, because it incorporates a bit of it into the plot at least). I like it because of it's great psychological exploration and characterization. I thought it was fantastically done. First of all, getting on TV is easy, just gotta call your local news outlet and tell them a scoop. I've actually been on Bulgarian TV news on an issue that our town had. Also, the series state that when Ryo was at a very young age he earned a Ph.D and even taught classes, given the fact that he's had Jenny since the start of his life, it's also easy to assume he's never been born as someone who had to start from scratch and that he's been rich from the start. It's easy to think that he got publicity due to earning a Ph.D when he was a child, and his good looks making him popular to the viewers and thus resulting in him appearing more in media. There's a basis for that, unlike Death Note's plot holes and sometimes borderline retarded ass pulls. Yeah, I misread the first sentence. I thought that he thinks I'm criticizing Death Note just cause he likes it. |
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hybridial said: Johan couldn't have known the doctors were gonna eat his candy though.Ryo being advantaged isn't a plot hole, HE'S FUCKING SATAN. The manga didn't really focus on that stuff with him because it didn't matter, and it still didn't really matter in the anime. I've had the Death Note argument too many times. Besides the fact it tries to build a plot around a supposed prodigy who really believes just killing a bunch of people will somehow fix the world (there is basically no way this makes sense, not even a mental health reason, a sociopath nor psychopath would behave this way in the same situation, perhaps a really stupid person might but that's not how Light Yagami is presented now is he?) And then it takes this serious concept and uses it to stage a bunch of asspull "I'm so smart" series of forced plot twists. Why am I supposed to give a shit about that? That's not compelling, that's not even a story. And you have the fucking nerve to insinuate I'm the one somehow lacking intelligence here. How about this; there is an actual long, intelligent anime thriller. Just the one really. It's called Monster. Because Naoki Urasawa isn't a hack. And what Light did did actually "fix" the world. Crime rates went down and people were so afraid of breaking the law they didn't do so. There's definitely some very obviously constructed stuff going on in Death Note, but the logic and mentality behind it always makes sense. IMO, Monster is way better though, and so is the devilman manga. All of them are in my favorites though (except for the Death Note manga, The score, voice acting and art of the anime really improves it). Also, don't you like kaiji, gankutsuou, or higurashi? I'd call those thrillers. |
197y37h1yho9Jan 16, 2018 2:57 AM
| Why are we talking about Death Note on a Devilman board? Seriously guys, this dick waving contest is getting annoying. It's not like you're going to convince anyone with opinions. At least check out the threads I posted on Devilman. |
| I would say it is fairly easy to love Evangelion if you love Devilman. They are pretty similar ending wise and with some very similar tone shifts. However, in addition, I think it is also easy to like Yugioh if you like devilman because of the ridiculous level of tone shift. Evangelion was a lot more purposeful with it's shifts. Devilman and Yugioh are more like a constant punchline. I adore it. |
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
DocJangarly said: Vyzass said: Ironically, the biggest elitist and hardcore old anime fans not impressed by Devilman:Crybaby. Oh wow, how butthurt is this guy? I like retro anime and manga as well, and even though I have some problems with this adaptation, I don't think it's bad. Ashita no Joe, Devilman, Cyborg 009 etc, those are great series from the past. He then goes on to say how Devilman isn't well written yadi yada. Why? Because Go Nagai is schlock! No other illogical reasoning needed even though that's not his entire library of works. Personal opinion, the manga flows really well, and I have it as one of my favourite. It's not like I don't have my problems with Crybaby, I do, but I don't think I can ever be as butthurt as this guy. This of course is what I expect from snobs all across the spectrum. Keep voting, my crybaby fans, Go Nagai has waited far too long to finally get the recognition he deserves in the West. But yeah, this dude is super butthurt. Like his butthurt levels are reaching critical mass. I can sense his inexplicable rage seething through my screen. Going by his videos, he seems to be a artist type of film snob. THose type of people tend to hate anything that is bloody and violent. Even Roger Ebert hated The Thing (1982), Hellrasier and Day of the Dead (The original). |
Hellspawn28 said: DocJangarly said: Oh wow, how butthurt is this guy? I like retro anime and manga as well, and even though I have some problems with this adaptation, I don't think it's bad. Ashita no Joe, Devilman, Cyborg 009 etc, those are great series from the past. He then goes on to say how Devilman isn't well written yadi yada. Why? Because Go Nagai is schlock! No other illogical reasoning needed even though that's not his entire library of works. Personal opinion, the manga flows really well, and I have it as one of my favourite. It's not like I don't have my problems with Crybaby, I do, but I don't think I can ever be as butthurt as this guy. This of course is what I expect from snobs all across the spectrum. Keep voting, my crybaby fans, Go Nagai has waited far too long to finally get the recognition he deserves in the West. But yeah, this dude is super butthurt. Like his butthurt levels are reaching critical mass. I can sense his inexplicable rage seething through my screen. Going by his videos, he seems to be a artist type of film snob. THose type of people tend to hate anything that is bloody and violent. Even Roger Ebert hated The Thing (1982), Hellrasier and Day of the Dead (The original). Snob is the most basic form of a pretentious elitist. He acts like his opinion is superior because ''he can see the greatness in Ghost In The Shell, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, etc.'' It's one of his mottos that ''Everything retro is good and everything modern sucks''. |
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SigmaticDoc said: It's one of his mottos that ''Everything retro is good and everything modern sucks''. In terms of anime, the latter part really isn't far from being the truth. I mean I will not judge something because it's modern, but in terms of seeing things that even look worth my time, that even draw my interest, that don't repulse me in disgust with terrible art and even worse plot concepts, honestly it's difficult. There might be 2-3 titles a year and they almost always relate to a retro series in some way, like Lupin or Devilman or Space Battleship Yamato. Taking something retro and modernising it tends to have good results, because the style back then *was* better, so much better. I don't think it's snobbishness, that would more entail actually watching the stuff and shitting on it. I just don't care unless I see a reason to. Nothing really draws me anymore. |
hybridial said: SigmaticDoc said: It's one of his mottos that ''Everything retro is good and everything modern sucks''. In terms of anime, the latter part really isn't far from being the truth. I mean I will not judge something because it's modern, but in terms of seeing things that even look worth my time, that even draw my interest, that don't repulse me in disgust with terrible art and even worse plot concepts, honestly it's difficult. There might be 2-3 titles a year and they almost always relate to a retro series in some way, like Lupin or Devilman or Space Battleship Yamato. Taking something retro and modernising it tends to have good results, because the style back then *was* better, so much better. I don't think it's snobbishness, that would more entail actually watching the stuff and shitting on it. I just don't care unless I see a reason to. Nothing really draws me anymore. Nope. Both statements are wrong. There's always been good and bad anime. The time period makes no difference. The only real difference is the quantity of shows, not the quality. |
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Kittens-kun said: Nope. Both statements are wrong. There's always been good and bad anime. The time period makes no difference. The only real difference is the quantity of shows, not the quality. That sounds sensible, but there's also another generally held truth about this. 90% of everything is crap. So the good stuff gets buried the more that quantity rises. |
hybridial said: whoever said that probably hasn't even watched 15% of everything put together 90% of everything is crap. |
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Deknijff said: hybridial said: whoever said that probably hasn't even watched 15% of everything put together 90% of everything is crap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law I think it holds true in my experience in the fields where I'm involved enough to realistically judge it. With anime the figure is probably closer to 99% now. :P |
hybridial said: if that is the case then why is your Mean Score 7.45 which would say you find most shows you've watched to be good as thats your average given scoreDeknijff said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_lawwhoever said that probably hasn't even watched 15% of everything put together I think it holds true in my experience in the fields where I'm involved enough to realistically judge it. With anime the figure is probably closer to 99% now. :P |
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Deknijff said: if that is the case then why is your Mean Score 7.45 which would say you find most shows you've watched to be good as thats your average given score Because I haven't gone out my way to watch stuff I would hate. |
hybridial said: Very well then Deknijff said: Because I haven't gone out my way to watch stuff I would hate. if that is the case then why is your Mean Score 7.45 which would say you find most shows you've watched to be good as thats your average given score though Id recommend not actually following such a stupid term as you haven't watched everything in the world. Think what you think is bad by all means if you believe you can argue your stance but saying 90% of which a majority you haven't watched or seen is bad is just straight up ignorance or foolishness |
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Deknijff said: Think what you think is bad by all means if you believe you can argue your stance but saying 90% of which a majority you haven't watched or seen is bad is just straight up ignorance or foolishness The statement is coming from a very specific angle, admittedly, it's less about bad and good and more about true intellectual value. It's going to be hard for anything to have real world merit nowadays with the advent of pop culture. Still, yeah I'm quite happy to dismiss the majority of anime now based on what they look like alone. It's a visual medium, so having an appealing style I think can sell me a story is really not being unfair. The standards of the industry is thus that almost everything looks like shit now. |
Kittens-kun said: hybridial said: In terms of anime, the latter part really isn't far from being the truth. I mean I will not judge something because it's modern, but in terms of seeing things that even look worth my time, that even draw my interest, that don't repulse me in disgust with terrible art and even worse plot concepts, honestly it's difficult. There might be 2-3 titles a year and they almost always relate to a retro series in some way, like Lupin or Devilman or Space Battleship Yamato. Taking something retro and modernising it tends to have good results, because the style back then *was* better, so much better. I don't think it's snobbishness, that would more entail actually watching the stuff and shitting on it. I just don't care unless I see a reason to. Nothing really draws me anymore. Nope. Both statements are wrong. There's always been good and bad anime. The time period makes no difference. The only real difference is the quantity of shows, not the quality. Pretty much. I do prefer retro anime, mainly because of their visuals, but quality anime come pretty much at the same pace, people forget that the 80s and 90s were full of trashy anime that were never remembered. Just like how modern anime has plenty of good anime which are ignored because of the prejudice everyone has towards them. Devilman: Crybaby, Parasyte The Maxim, Ping Pong The Animation, Tatami Galaxy, The Night is Short, Walk On Girl, FMAB, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann are all technically moden anime, even if 3 of them are based on old manga. |
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hybridial said: Deknijff said: Think what you think is bad by all means if you believe you can argue your stance but saying 90% of which a majority you haven't watched or seen is bad is just straight up ignorance or foolishness The statement is coming from a very specific angle, admittedly, it's less about bad and good and more about true intellectual value. It's going to be hard for anything to have real world merit nowadays with the advent of pop culture. Still, yeah I'm quite happy to dismiss the majority of anime now based on what they look like alone. It's a visual medium, so having an appealing style I think can sell me a story is really not being unfair. The standards of the industry is thus that almost everything looks like shit now. My God, you sound like such a hipster, its ridiculous. No offense, but you're the type of fan that gives anime fans a bad name on the internet for a reason. Not as bad as TheAnimeSnob, but still up there. |
hybridial said: Deknijff said: Think what you think is bad by all means if you believe you can argue your stance but saying 90% of which a majority you haven't watched or seen is bad is just straight up ignorance or foolishness The statement is coming from a very specific angle, admittedly, it's less about bad and good and more about true intellectual value. It's going to be hard for anything to have real world merit nowadays with the advent of pop culture. Still, yeah I'm quite happy to dismiss the majority of anime now based on what they look like alone. It's a visual medium, so having an appealing style I think can sell me a story is really not being unfair. The standards of the industry is thus that almost everything looks like shit now. I'm guessing by "everything looks like shit now" you mean the soft and simple art style of most anime, particularly the moe slice of life art? Well then, whether you like it or not those aren't actually bad. The problem is that you probably have a fragile and outdated masculinity that is upset that gritty, macho and "badass" designs aren't the norm now like how they were in the 80's and 90's. |
JokerJoestar said: Well then, whether you like it or not those aren't actually bad. The problem is that you probably have a fragile and outdated masculinity that is upset that gritty, macho and "badass" designs aren't the norm now like how they were in the 80's and 90's How's feminism working out for you, pal? |
JokerJoestar said: Well then, whether you like it or not those aren't actually bad. The problem is that you probably have a fragile and outdated masculinity that is upset that gritty, macho and "badass" designs aren't the norm now like how they were in the 80's and 90's. A contrived bunch of nothing. Masculinity and femininity have nothing to do with this, it's a simple fact that the art used in anime now is less than in the past. Less effort, less detail, less artistic uniqueness (used to be not all animes looked the fucking same). By any artistic measure, it is fucking bad, and that's what matters. Modern anime looks cheap, it looks generated by a computer, and it's incredibly homogenised. One of the better looking animes of recent years was Lupin III - The Woman called Fujiko Mine. Now I've seen some say that's a feminist anime, and some don't agree with that, it's debatable, but I don't care about that debate. Does it look fantastic? Yes it does. |
| overhyped ... every season this happens with one anime and u suddenly see tokyo ghoul, one punch man, ,my hero academia and others in the top.... |
Tsimo said: overhyped ... every season this happens with one anime and u suddenly see tokyo ghoul, one punch man, ,my hero academia and others in the top.... The idea of something being overhyped is merely in the eye of the beholder. And by the way, I'm gonna say that Anime as a medium is far better then it ever has been. Thats my stance on it. |
| Sadly I dont had to time to read all of the topic. @SigmaticDoc So If I get right you think modern anime fans dont understand the beauty of this show and that is why their opinions are irrelevant?  |
sasalx said: Sadly I dont had to time to read all of the topic. @SigmaticDoc So If I get right you think modern anime fans dont understand the beauty of this show and that is why their opinions are irrelevant? More or less. Modern fans aren't used to looking for subtlety in the anime they watch because most modern anime simply do not have that. I do think that compared to the 90s and early 2000s, the amount of shows that actually make you think or just simply make you pay more attention due to subtlety are an extreme rarity nowadays, only targeted at niché audiences. And in short, I think that if they're unable to even understand something, it's not really their right to have an opinion on it. |
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AsuraDestructor said: And by the way, I'm gonna say that Anime as a medium is far better then it ever has been. Thats my stance on it. When something today actually IS good... I will say they tend to be very good. But this is also the age of a fucking endless slew of worthless, trashy moe shit. Also most shonen pretty much suck, but that's been true since the 90s. |
hybridial said: AsuraDestructor said: And by the way, I'm gonna say that Anime as a medium is far better then it ever has been. Thats my stance on it. When something today actually IS good... I will say they tend to be very good. But this is also the age of a fucking endless slew of worthless, trashy moe shit. Also most shonen pretty much suck, but that's been true since the 90s. Moe has been around snce the eighties in some shape or form. Hell, Go Nagai helped invent a lot of it. So I don't see the problem, I still think most modern anime is far superior to most anime of old, both from an animation and a general writing standpoint. |
AsuraDestructor said: Moe has been around snce the eighties in some shape or form. Hell, Go Nagai helped invent a lot of it. Back then, it was distracting, but tolerable. Now, it's pretty much taken over the entire industry and it defines modern otaku. Now is simply not comparable to then. And just because you're blind to the problem doesn't mean it isn't there. Yes, I can pluck some things I liked that are on the newer side, Black Lagoon, Mardock Scramble, Monster (although two of those are over 10 years old at this point) and those are really fucking good, but quality like that is not common. And I already laid out why modern animation techniques have homogenised the industry to the point everything looks the damn same, and there's no merit really. The typical anime now doesn't tend to be that fluidly animated, but they pretty much are drawn like crap with no detail, poor direction and practical absence of shading to create any kind of feeling of lighting on the environment. But I largely stand by what I said before. You said most anime now is better than they used to be? I say most anime now isn't worth bothering with. |
AsuraDestructor said: hybridial said: When something today actually IS good... I will say they tend to be very good. But this is also the age of a fucking endless slew of worthless, trashy moe shit. Also most shonen pretty much suck, but that's been true since the 90s. Moe has been around snce the eighties in some shape or form. Hell, Go Nagai helped invent a lot of it. So I don't see the problem, I still think most modern anime is far superior to most anime of old, both from an animation and a general writing standpoint. I'd disagree, no modern anime I've seen has even come close to the animation of Akira, and that's from 1988. Not only is it the smoothest and most consistent animation I've seen, the amount of details on each frame is mind boggling. Nowadays when a sakuga scene starts, you notice that it stands out compared to the rest by a lot. The detail in the backgrounds becomes minimal for the sake of fluid movement and the debris of destruction becomes Minecraft blocks instead of actual rocks. Retro anime simply win when it comes to consistency of detailed good animation. And in terms of writing? Now, I heavily disagree here. OVAs are no longer popular, they're now over-glorified special episodes instead of an actual format for full-length series like it was before, so most studios are aiming for TV format, and there's a lot of restrictions with it from censore to actual content in the script and whether it's appropriate for the general audience, because a child can easily stumble on a TV channel, OVAs on the other hand have their age demographic on the box. In short, there's much less creative freedom than there was back in the 80s and 90s, and that's not even limited only to the fact that OVAs are less popular, as a whole, TV format is a lot more restricted too. Retro anime has more creative freedom and that's partially the reason why the stories back then were written much better. The other part being that anime wasn't as big back then and everyone got their inspirations from the real world, movies, other works, etc. contrary to today's industry where every 2nd mangaka's only influence is another manga series, which is the reason why a lot of characters in modern anime feel like over-exaggerated caricatures instead of well fleshed out characters you can connect with to a certain level. |
AzurealXJan 31, 2018 7:47 AM
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SigmaticDoc said: And in short, I think that if they're unable to even understand something, it's not really their right to have an opinion on it. Another problem with "le modurm animu fan" is that they seemingly only use broad statements and generalizations. They'll often just say "All of X is Y" without being aware of any outliers and they completely lack the ability to inject any sort of nuance into their opinions. It always has to be black and white with these people, so they just come off as pompous and arrogant, all the while making complete and utter fools of themselves. Some of these people go so far as to say that their generalizations mean that they shouldn't be allowed to do certain things, which is a whole new level of autism if you ask me. |
| People who put MAL stats in their sigs are losers lol |
| @SigmaticDoc Then let me say one thing. Cant we just let people rate what and how they want to rate? Some just looks at animation and rate 10 looking at you Violet... For example the enjoyment is what I care. Not the animation not the OST but all of them as a whole creates an enjoyment level. So think about it. Maybe that one person didnt like the animation or story then rated low? What is the problem? Its just an opinion. You cant expect people to respect your opinion while you dont respect others. This is why this whole topic is full of hypocrisy. |
| @SigmaticDoc Not that I disagree with you, but it's really not fair to compare Akira to TV anime. It being a movie and whatnot, it obviously going to have more work put into it. The other reason why there was more creative freedom had do with Japan's economy. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
Psyotic said: SigmaticDoc said: And in short, I think that if they're unable to even understand something, it's not really their right to have an opinion on it. Another problem with "le modurm animu fan" is that they seemingly only use broad statements and generalizations. They'll often just say "All of X is Y" without being aware of any outliers and they completely lack the ability to inject any sort of nuance into their opinions. It always has to be black and white with these people, so they just come off as pompous and arrogant, all the while making complete and utter fools of themselves. Some of these people go so far as to say that their generalizations mean that they shouldn't be allowed to do certain things, which is a whole new level of autism if you ask me. Which is why I don't say all, I say most. :> |
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sasalx said: @SigmaticDoc Then let me say one thing. Cant we just let people rate what and how they want to rate? Some just looks at animation and rate 10 looking at you Violet... For example the enjoyment is what I care. Not the animation not the OST but all of them as a whole creates an enjoyment level. So think about it. Maybe that one person didnt like the animation or story then rated low? What is the problem? Its just an opinion. You cant expect people to respect your opinion while you dont respect others. This is why this whole topic is full of hypocrisy. I don't want people to respect my opinion, I want them to understand it. So yeah. I can understand people's opinions that are made with complete lack of knowledge on certain series but that doesn't mean I respect them. And as a whole, I'm just trying to say - ''Is it really that hard to get?'' That's not exclusive to modern anime fans but is more prominent with them. Devilman: Crybaby is as straightforward as it gets with some subtlety sprinkled here and there so I don't see how someone can't understand it. And yet, I've seen people claiming they don't understand the ending or other parts of the show when the ending was literally foreshadowed in the first few seconds of episode 1 and it was given more substance in episode 8. |
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Cabron said: @SigmaticDoc Not that I disagree with you, but it's really not fair to compare Akira to TV anime. It being a movie and whatnot, it obviously going to have more work put into it. The other reason why there was more creative freedom had do with Japan's economy. That would be a fair point if Akira wasn't animated better than the majority of anime movies today and not only tv series. |
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SigmaticDoc said: Cabron said: @SigmaticDoc Not that I disagree with you, but it's really not fair to compare Akira to TV anime. It being a movie and whatnot, it obviously going to have more work put into it. The other reason why there was more creative freedom had do with Japan's economy. That would be a fair point if Akira wasn't animated better than the majority of anime movies today and not only tv series. Now you are legitmately talking bullshit at this point. And their are plenty of retro anime that are far worse animated compared to some of the worst animation of today. As far as writing, Theirs tons of horrible writing from then, too. Hell, anime was far less subtle back then, too. |
AsuraDestructor said: And their are plenty of retro anime that are far worse animated compared to some of the worst animation of today. As far as writing, Theirs tons of horrible writing from then, too. Hell, anime was far less subtle back then, too. Those are far too general statements to have any meaning. Although I'd definitely argue on the subtlety argument that... like all media, not just anime, is kinda struggling with how to be subtle, these days. On that you're definitely quite wrong. |
SigmaticDoc said: More or less. Modern fans aren't used to looking for subtlety in the anime they watch because most modern anime simply do not have that. I do think that compared to the 90s and early 2000s, the amount of shows that actually make you think or just simply make you pay more attention due to subtlety are an extreme rarity nowadays, only targeted at niché audiences. And in short, I think that if they're unable to even understand something, it's not really their right to have an opinion on it. A. No, you don't. B. That's still a generalization. If I say most black people are violent thugs, that's still a shitty generalization. Simply replacing "all" with "most" doesn't mean your opinion is any more complex or nuanced. |
| People who put MAL stats in their sigs are losers lol |
Psyotic said: SigmaticDoc said: More or less. Modern fans aren't used to looking for subtlety in the anime they watch because most modern anime simply do not have that. I do think that compared to the 90s and early 2000s, the amount of shows that actually make you think or just simply make you pay more attention due to subtlety are an extreme rarity nowadays, only targeted at niché audiences. And in short, I think that if they're unable to even understand something, it's not really their right to have an opinion on it. A. No, you don't. B. That's still a generalization. If I say most black people are violent thugs, that's still a shitty generalization. Simply replacing "all" with "most" doesn't mean your opinion is any more complex or nuanced. As much as an generalization you think it is, it is true. Comparing the amount of retro anime fans to the amount of modern anime fans I know, on the average, the retro anime fans understand subtlety a lot more. Modern anime's most common form of subtlety is just showing something in the animation for a split second or so. (e.g Darling in the FranXX pilot numbers on episode 2). They rarely have anything in the dialogue. It's all just inner monologues when they wanna express an emotion. Etc. |
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You see, a generalization is an extraordinary claim. If you're going to make an extraordinary claim, then naturally you need extraordinary evidence to back that claim up. If all you have is your own experience online, then you're just basing your beliefs off prejudice and not any sort of rational thought. Comparing the amount of retro anime fans to the amount of modern anime fans I know, on the average, the retro anime fans understand subtlety a lot more. Okay, so you are basing this off anecdotal evidence. In that case, the number of retro anime fans I know seem to be completely incapable of rational thought and speak only in broad generalizations, with little evidence to back their claims. Modern anime fans, however, are more equipped to rationalize their opinions and address the complexities of reality. Do you see the point I'm trying to get at? Because you come off as being just as cringey as the types of kids who listen to Led Zeppelin and think that their ultimately normie tier taste makes them better than "the other kids in their generation". Someone who actually has a decent understanding of music and music history however, would recognize that music in the modern day is still good and that people who praise the past often have a selective memory. The same can be applied to anime in that no one remembers the dogshit shows of the past, only the good ones. Coupled with how much anime comes out nowadays, it creates a rose tinted view of the past. |
| People who put MAL stats in their sigs are losers lol |
Psyotic said: Someone who actually has a decent understanding of music and music history however, would recognize that music in the modern day is still good and that people who praise the past often have a selective memory. The same can be applied to anime in that no one remembers the dogshit shows of the past, only the good ones. Coupled with how much anime comes out nowadays, it creates a rose tinted view of the past. These are all pretty good points. And yeah, I do think today it's not that there's nothing good being produced, its just that the industry has definitely hit a cycle of where they'll churn out line assembly manufactured cheap entertainment and it's hard to really find the cream of the crop when that is the case. I still maintain that a lot of recent trends in anime however have been pretty awful. I won't say stuff about the people watching them, or why they choose to like or dislike them. I can only say I'm really not impressed very often. And Devilman lady was made in 1998, and I haven't seen much in the 20 years since that I thought was even close really to being as emotionally engaging and thought provoking and stylish. I've seen many people be dismissive of it and I feel like they are very superficial when they do so. And as long as it's really common for animes to adopt the techniques and tropes they tend to go for these days, I won't find much I could even stomach watching. I mean you can if you want, name shows and try to argue otherwise to me. But that's a seperate argument from the one about trends. And I just really hate the trends. And I find it hard to find much of anything outside of that, see with music I have pretty niche tastes but I have found plenty of stuff to be happy with, and I actually do believe many of the more recent bands and albums are on par with classics. I would say just because I like name dropping, the album Winters Gate, by Insomnium, is easilly comparably good with Somewhere in Time by Iron Maiden. I love both, I think there's real progression to admire there. It's been harder to find with anime, but Mardock Scramble, Monster, and Black Lagoon show what could be, but just isn't near often enough. |
hybridialFeb 1, 2018 8:45 AM
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